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In-Reply-To: <20200519135055.n73j4a6sypfrgdtk@eye.freedbms.net>
From: Karl <gmkarl@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 24 May 2020 18:23:09 -0400
Message-ID: <CALL-=e6PfvAsiRRNSt8C0hqgkARGeU2nr+Yy2nTDw=64vxT1yw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Coronavirus: Thread
To: Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net>
Cc: cypherpunks <cypherpunks@lists.cpunks.org>
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Hi Zenaan, I'm replying to your reply.
It sounds like we either disagree about something or agree that something
else is more important than what we are disagreeing about.
On Tue, May 19, 2020, 9:51 AM Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
> On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 07:45:42AM -0400, Karl wrote:
> > On Mon, May 18, 2020, 4:43 PM grarpamp <grarpamp@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > some in power could have wanted to heal some of the harm
> > >
> > > They don't, else they would. Till recant, repent, and renew, a life of
> > > irrelevance afforded them by new revolution[aries] may be their fate.
> > > History usually treated them much worse.
> >
> > Everyone has a heart.
>
> ~2% of humans are sociopathic - power hungry, willing to do evil (by
> average definitions), Skull and Bones, murder etc.
>
> The first step is recognizing reality as it is, rather than as we would
> like to assume it to be.
>
That is an incredibly small % of awareness of how most peoples' behaviors
in an industrialized culture kill people they aren't thinking about.
Murderers still appreciate respect.
> The path that gathers the most power includes the
> > most diverse set of powerful hearts.
>
> At a human level (pragmatic considerations for the majority of humans)
> that's "hippy rubbish" or denial of reality.
>
Totally, gives people who include many others excessive power due to nobody
else doing it. Then I suppose they either get coerced to run for office or
imprisoned or something.
> But honestly I'm outside my comfort zone there. I've been prevented from
> > learning of mediating between oppressor and oppressed (and I'm not
> trained
> > in mediation).
>
> Well there's a good start for you - learn about mediation. Or, you might
> just happen to enjoy getting steamrolled and pummelled in various ways.
>
In a room of conflict, everybody is acting based on shared human needs.
But they must be spoken to in a language that validates their pain.
Yeah I kinda freak out and don't get too deep into it (couple years of
exposure to mediation while fighting a psychotic break: helps a lot but
gets learned pretty weird). Slowly learning. Probably should have
postponed this reply you quoted.
> When somebody rips my eyeballs out I give them a hug.
>
> Actually not, because that person is actually capably of doing so, which
> is an extraordinarily rapid set of movements where their final stance is
> well beyond your physical reach.
>
> Except that you are similarly trained, should you find yourself having
> your eyeballs ripped out you undoubtedly scream in agony and immediately
> fall to the ground clutching your face.
>
Sounds like you have some hand-to-hand combat exposure or experience. I'm
exposed to being powerless and unable to move while being harmed.
> Then they rip my
> > arms off. I thank them for keeping themselves safe and apologize for
> > making them uncomfortable and they rip my tongue out.
>
> The training a human requires to be able to live such physical actions, is
> beyond all but the smallest vanishing fraction of a percentage of all
> humans.
>
> It's all very well as an allegory or some grandiose "call to higher
> ethics", but when such call is beyond the realistic ability of almost
> everyone who would ever hear your words to actually live, the effect in
> this world from uttering such words is likely similarly vanishing.
>
Thanks, honestly. But that hasn't literally happened to me: it's a general
analogy for giving care to somebody key who is harming you. It's helped me
a lot in less extreme situations, but it's better to understand them better
than that.
> After I am dead,
> > they think, and then their next victim has more to work with than I did.
>
> So you say.
>
> There may have been one who lived such a high ethic, but even he was
> apparently only nailed to a wooden cross and so did not immediately bleed
> to death, as would happen were your arms cut off - even if you could hold a
> state of grace in the face of the pain of having your eyeballs ripped out
> and your arms cut off - the pragmatic certainty is that you would rapidly
> fall into unconsciousness and shortly bleed to death.
>
I erred by giving a fake example and assuming it was obvious when handling
the thought of restorative justice which is hard for me and important.
Friend, Jesus died so you would see how important it is to act as He did.
And many many other people have died those ways, too.
I was reading the record from one of the torture victims during the 9/11
investigation. The man had become so used to being drowned he fell asleep
and stayed asleep while inhaling water.
> Eventually they start behaving like I did, to their boss.
>
> Of your own, human, individual will, few would ever believe this - it's
> far too fanciful.
>
Yeah sorry. It was a generic story. It's worked for me in a lot of
analogous situations: you quickly get care when you reflect no pain, and
you are remembered with value. But you can analogously die.
Hands and feet nailed? Ok, may be. A stabbed gash in the ribs. Yeah,
> damn painful, but Roman swords were not cerrated, so the blood would
> probably clot. Strung up in this way for 3 days? Makes sense given that
> movement every now and then might open the wounds and cause more bleeding,
> and the internal injuries and possible blood poisoning from insects landing
> would ultimately get to you.
>
> Eyes and arms removed? Naah, not realistic...
>
This one was just an analogy.
But a lot of people are dying out there for us (indirectly), in the present
day. In Africa and closer.
Do people mention jesus when I describe complete giving, because it is so
rare in their culture that he's the only example that comes to mind? I
find it wonderful and run into many others who do too.
>
--0000000000006df5e505a66c4f65
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<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Hi Zenaan, I'm replying to your reply.<div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">It sounds like we either disagree abo=
ut something or agree that something else is more important than what we ar=
e disagreeing about.</div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"lt=
r" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, May 19, 2020, 9:51 AM Zenaan Harkness <<=
a href=3D"mailto:zen@freedbms.net">zen@freedbms.net</a>> wrote:<br></div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 07:45:42AM -0400, K=
arl wrote:<br>
> On Mon, May 18, 2020, 4:43 PM grarpamp <<a href=3D"mailto:grarpamp@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">grarpamp@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:<br>
> <br>
> > > some in power could have wanted to heal some of the harm<br>
> ><br>
> > They don't, else they would. Till recant, repent, and renew, =
a life of<br>
> > irrelevance afforded them by new revolution[aries] may be their f=
ate.<br>
> > History usually treated them much worse.<br>
> <br>
> Everyone has a heart.<br>
<br>
~2% of humans are sociopathic - power hungry, willing to do evil (by averag=
e definitions), Skull and Bones, murder etc.<br>
<br>
The first step is recognizing reality as it is, rather than as we would lik=
e to assume it to be.<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto">That is an incredibly small % of awareness of how most=
peoples' behaviors in an industrialized culture kill people they aren&=
#39;t thinking=C2=A0 about.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"au=
to">Murderers still appreciate respect.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
> The path that gathers the most power includes the<br>
> most diverse set of powerful hearts.<br>
<br>
At a human level (pragmatic considerations for the majority of humans) that=
's "hippy rubbish" or denial of reality.<br></blockquote></di=
v></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Totally, gives people=
who include many others excessive power due to nobody else doing it.=C2=A0=
Then I suppose they either get coerced to run for office or imprisoned or =
something.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">> But hone=
stly I'm outside my comfort zone there.=C2=A0 I've been prevented f=
rom</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex">
> learning of mediating between oppressor and oppressed (and I'm not=
trained<br>
> in mediation).<br>
<br>
Well there's a good start for you - learn about mediation.=C2=A0 Or, yo=
u might just happen to enjoy getting steamrolled and pummelled in various w=
ays.<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"au=
to">In a room of conflict, everybody is acting based on shared human needs.=
=C2=A0 But they must be spoken to in a language that validates their pain.<=
/div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Yeah I kinda freak out a=
nd don't get too deep into it (couple years of exposure to mediation wh=
ile fighting a psychotic break: helps a lot but gets learned pretty weird).=
=C2=A0 Slowly learning.=C2=A0 Probably should have postponed this reply you=
quoted.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
> When somebody rips my eyeballs out I give them a hug.<br>
<br>
Actually not, because that person is actually capably of doing so, which is=
an extraordinarily rapid set of movements where their final stance is well=
beyond your physical reach.<br>
<br>
Except that you are similarly trained, should you find yourself having your=
eyeballs ripped out you undoubtedly scream in agony and immediately fall t=
o the ground clutching your face.<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"a=
uto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Sounds like you have some hand-to-hand com=
bat exposure or experience.=C2=A0 I'm exposed to being powerless and un=
able to move while being harmed.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
> Then they rip my<br>
> arms off.=C2=A0 I thank them for keeping themselves safe and apologize=
for<br>
> making them uncomfortable and they rip my tongue out.<br>
<br>
The training a human requires to be able to live such physical actions, is =
beyond all but the smallest vanishing fraction of a percentage of all human=
s.<br>
<br>
It's all very well as an allegory or some grandiose "call to highe=
r ethics", but when such call is beyond the realistic ability of almos=
t everyone who would ever hear your words to actually live, the effect in t=
his world from uttering such words is likely similarly vanishing.<br></bloc=
kquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Thanks, ho=
nestly.=C2=A0 But that hasn't literally happened to me: it's a gene=
ral analogy for giving care to somebody key who is harming you.=C2=A0 It=
9;s helped me a lot in less extreme situations, but it's better to unde=
rstand them better than that.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"=
auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
> After I am dead,<br>
> they think, and then their next victim has more to work with than I di=
d.<br>
<br>
So you say.<br>
<br>
There may have been one who lived such a high ethic, but even he was appare=
ntly only nailed to a wooden cross and so did not immediately bleed to deat=
h, as would happen were your arms cut off - even if you could hold a state =
of grace in the face of the pain of having your eyeballs ripped out and you=
r arms cut off - the pragmatic certainty is that you would rapidly fall int=
o unconsciousness and shortly bleed to death.<br></blockquote></div></div><=
div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I erred by giving a fake examp=
le and assuming it was obvious when handling the thought of restorative jus=
tice which is hard for me and important.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><=
div dir=3D"auto">Friend, Jesus died so you would see how important it is to=
act as He did.=C2=A0 And many many other people have died those ways, too.=
</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I was reading the recor=
d from one of the torture victims during the 9/11 investigation.=C2=A0 The =
man had become so used to being drowned he fell asleep and stayed asleep wh=
ile inhaling water.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div=
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
> Eventually they start behaving like I did, to their boss.<br>
<br>
Of your own, human, individual will, few would ever believe this - it's=
far too fanciful.<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>=
<div dir=3D"auto">Yeah sorry.=C2=A0 It was a generic story.=C2=A0 It's =
worked for me in a lot of analogous situations: you quickly get care when y=
ou reflect no pain, and you are remembered with value.=C2=A0 But you can an=
alogously die.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"aut=
o"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hands and feet=
nailed?=C2=A0 Ok, may be.=C2=A0 A stabbed gash in the ribs.=C2=A0 Yeah, da=
mn painful, but Roman swords were not cerrated, so the blood would probably=
clot.=C2=A0 Strung up in this way for 3 days?=C2=A0 Makes sense given that=
movement every now and then might open the wounds and cause more bleeding,=
and the internal injuries and possible blood poisoning from insects landin=
g would ultimately get to you.<br>
<br>
Eyes and arms removed?=C2=A0 Naah, not realistic...<br></blockquote></div><=
/div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">This one was just an ana=
logy.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">But a lot of peopl=
e are dying out there for us (indirectly), in the present day.=C2=A0 In Afr=
ica and closer.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Do peopl=
e mention jesus when I describe complete giving, because it is so rare in t=
heir culture that he's the only example that comes to mind?=C2=A0 I fin=
d it wonderful and run into many others who do too.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
</blockquote></div></div></div>
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message/rfc822binary(23ff76b9b7b3862739cf5631b23ec5b2d3c5c353
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