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Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 08:35:18 +0000 (UTC)
From: jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com>
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<2118666900.3440731.1575920269908@mail.yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: tor replacement - was Re: Box for simple Tor node.
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It turns out that in two months, I will have the opportunity to announce t=
his project at a convention.=C2=A0 I will be happy to do so if it appears t=
hat there will be sufficient progress in the next two months.=C2=A0 A fairl=
y firm commitment by someone to write the software would be an excellent st=
art.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 And, this announcement MAY lead to some financing of the =
project.=C2=A0=C2=A0
The main question, other than the financing, is the programming of the soft=
ware.=C2=A0 Has there been any progress on this matter?=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Jim Bell
On Monday, December 9, 2019, 11:39:10 AM PST, jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.=
com> wrote: =20
=20
I hope people haven't fotten about the idea for making=C2=A0 an alternate=
anonymization system.=C2=A0 The hardware requirements almost write themsel=
ves.=C2=A0 Yes, there was some discussion about the software issues.=C2=A0 =
Could/did somebody write a proposal of the functions and features of this s=
ystem?=C2=A0 Any volunteers on programming it?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jim Bell
On Tuesday, October 15, 2019, 01:21:31 PM PDT, jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo=
.com> wrote: =20
=20
Jim Bell's comments inline:=C2=A0=C2=A0
On Tuesday, October 15, 2019, 11:23:53 AM PDT, Punk <punks@tfwno.gf> wr=
ote: =20
=20
On Sun, 13 Oct 2019 22:15:58 +0000 (UTC)
jim bell <jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>...let's flesh out some of the numbers and practices.=C2=A0 Shouldn't tak=
e more than a few hours or at most a couple days, to give everybody an inpu=
t.=C2=A0
>> This=C2=A0 =C2=A0appears to be a representative sample of a Raspberry Pi=
4 board, in kit form, 4 gigabyte of RAM (I guess they must mean SDCard, ri=
ght, and not ordinary SRAM or DRAM?
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 as coderman said, that's the pi's main RAM memory. So ye=
ah, those ARM 'systems on a chip'=C2=A0 are quite capable. They have 4 core=
s running at ~1.2gcps and tons of ram.=C2=A0
_I_ remember when an Intel 8048 was called a "computer on a chip"!!!
>>=C2=A0 SD wears out, right?), with cables, a clear plastic box.=C2=A0 $85=
in quantity one.=C2=A0=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the previous model with 'only' 1gb or RAM, same processor is=
$35 or less. (you need to add a sd card, power supply and case)
How much main memory would be useful for a transfer node to use?
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0...so the hardware is quite cheap. The question is, of =
course, to what degree is it safe? The rpi for instance is designed in the =
english shithole by people working for the amerikan mafia known as broadcom=
. The rpi's main processor is a broadcom processor (not the quadcore ARM), =
running closed source firmware written by the raspberry 'foundation'.=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 there are other systems that are not as bad as the rpi - at =
least you won't be running GCHQ-NSA firmware directly. (some people were wo=
rking on an open source firmware but I don't think they got it to work)
I agree that this is a matter that needs to be discussed.=C2=A0 But no doub=
t you've heard of the saying, 'the perfect being the enemy of the good'.=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
> Can we agree that 1,000 quantity will be a good initial "critical mass" f=
or this project?=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A thousand independent node operators isn't a small numb=
er.=20
>> tor is currently larger,=C2=A0=C2=A0https://metrics.torproject.org/netwo=
rksize.html=C2=A0but 1000 is still a good start.
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0yeah, you have to take into account for instance what %=
of those nodes is owned by the NSA, GCHQ, FSB, stasi, whatever the chinese=
agency is called, samsung, hitachi, etc etc etc etc etc.
=C2=A0 >=C2=A0 but wait, is your network partially client/server like tor, =
or is it a fully decentralized peer to peer network? (freenetproject.org)
First, I'm not looking for it to be thought of as "my" network, although ma=
ybe I will be credited with some initiative for giving the project a kick.=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The person whose network it is publicly known as might end up =
being the person who initially funds it, and agrees to have his name attach=
ed to the project as sponsor.=C2=A0=C2=A0
And no, I'm not qualified to answer your second comment.=C2=A0 I don't cons=
ider myself a "software person", never have been.=C2=A0 This is yet another=
issue 'we' will have to work out.=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=20
>> While hypothetically node operators might receive some sort of subsidy (=
in full or in part) for their internet-service cost, it's also plausible th=
at their Internet payment will be their "skin in the game", their contribut=
ion to the project.=C2=A0 Centurylink offers 1 gigabit/second service for $=
65 plus tax.=C2=A0 The speed itself is only one part of the issue.=C2=A0 I =
think there is no data limit for their 1 gigabit service; their slower serv=
ices may have a 1 terabyte/month limit.=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I don't know about bandwidth costs, but they obv. depend on =
how your network works. So discussing those costs before having some idea a=
bout what kind of capacity/traffic/padding/architecture etc the system will=
have seems kinda backwards.
The reason I initially referred to "1 gigabit"=C2=A0 service for nodes is t=
hat I was, and still am, under the impression that current Centurylink poli=
cy exempts them from their "excessive use" policy.=C2=A0 I suspect that com=
puters of this level (Raspbery pi 4) won't be able to throughput more than =
a few tens of megabits of (processed) data, if that, so Internet rate won't=
likely be a bottleneck.=C2=A0 But a data cap could easily become a limitin=
g factor, especially if the network implements heavy chaff.=C2=A0=C2=A0
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 As to 'entirely new', it seems to me that a high latency =
mixing network (which is not a 'new' design) is desirable. Such a network s=
hould allow people to communicate using non-real-time messages, instead of =
allowing them to browse jewtube. Low latency/real time networks and communi=
cations seem a lot harder to secure."
>=20
>> What I'm thinking of is a programmable-latency network, say anything fro=
m 1 to 256 hops.=C2=A0 Although, it would be hard to imagine needing more t=
han 16, I suppose.
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0some variables :=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *) number of mixers/nodes a message goes through
Yes, I'm thinking that a user should be able to decide, for any individual =
message, how many nodes it will go through.=C2=A0 =C2=A0He will still have =
a latency issue to deal with, but at least that tradeoff question will be d=
ecided by HIM, not the entire network as a group,.=C2=A0 =C2=A0
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0*) all clients and nodes are exchanging fixed size pack=
ets all the time (chaff)
I consider chaff essential to increase the difficulty of tracing messages, =
especially when traffic is low.=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0*) there are no clients - it's a peer to peer network
> >This is a list of proposed 'improvements' to TOR.=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://bl=
og.torproject.org/tor-design-proposals-how-we-make-changes-our-protocol=C2=
=A0=C2=A0No doubt SOMEWHERE there is a list of 'proposed improvements that =
we know the TOR structure will never agree to because they will be consider=
ed 'too good' '.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Shouldn't we use those, too?=C2=A0 =C2=A0Espec=
ially those!
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0so the best pentagon criminals like tor's syverson have=
been 'working' on this for a while and there are tons of 'literature' - so=
me of their stuff is here=20
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The Free Haven Project
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0notice that cypherpunks(...) like adam back(now blockst=
ream CEO, google funded) a guy called goldberg and others have been/are inv=
olved with tor to varying degrees. Furthermore, adam back was subscribed to=
this list. His last message=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0[Bitcoin-development] questions about bitcoin-XT code f=
ork & non-consensus hard-fork
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0anyway, you Jim could try to get some ideas or/and help=
from back. Ver for marketing and funding and back for technical assistance=
may be a good combination.=C2=A0
I hope that if the proposal is technically sound, financing won't be a prob=
lem.=C2=A0 My idea of a target amount of initial subsidy for setting up one=
node (ignoring software-development costs) should be about $50:=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0Myself, I'd like to charge about $30 for the hardware kit, the quantity-=
1 cost would be $90 or so, but I don't yet have an estimate if the material=
s are purchased in 1000+ quantity.=C2=A0=C2=A0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Here are some other datapoints :
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0https://maidsafe.net/
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0those ppl have allegedly been working on teh problem...=
since forever. And they've gotten nowhere. They have even launched their ow=
n shitcoin/financial scam.=C2=A0
I see lots of fine words on their website.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 But they haven't ac=
complished much?
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0MaidSafeCoin (MAID) price, charts, market cap, and othe=
r metrics | CoinMarketCap
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 And they are not the only ones who want to add economic ince=
ntives to 'file sharing'. The idea seems like a good one to me, but it does=
n't seem to work.=C2=A0
If it were truly easy to attach a 18-terabyte HD to each node, that would m=
ake it a really interesting proposition...=C2=A0 =C2=A0This, for $140 more.=
..
=C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0Decentralized Cloud Storage =E2=80=94 Storj
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Decentralized Cloud Storage"=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0TRON Foundation=EF=BC=9ACapture the future slipping awa=
y
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "TRON is an ambitious project dedicated to building the =
infrastructure for a truly decentralized Internet."=20
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 there prolly are a few more like that.
=C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0bottom line : there's a fair number of variables to tak=
e into account...
True, <sigh>, quite true.=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 Jim Bell
=20
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<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydpf2080af4yahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px=
;"><div></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">It turns out that in two mon=
ths, I will have the opportunity to announce this project at a convention.&=
nbsp; I will be happy to do so if it appears that there will be sufficient =
progress in the next two months. A fairly firm commitment by someone =
to write the software would be an excellent start. And, this a=
nnouncement MAY lead to some financing of the project. </div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=
=3D"false">The main question, other than the financing, is the programming =
of the software. Has there been any progress on this matter? &nb=
sp;</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">&nbs=
p; Jim Bell</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br><=
/div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data=
-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div><br></div>
=20
</div><div id=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayahoo_quoted_9228513344" class=3D"ydp9a=
2e3c4ayahoo_quoted">
<div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
=20
<div>
On Monday, December 9, 2019, 11:39:10 AM PST, jim bell =
<jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><div id=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766"><div><div class=
=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp960123c0yahoo-style-wrap" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div></div=
>
<div dir=3D"ltr">I hope people haven't fotten about the idea for ma=
king an alternate anonymization system. The hardware requiremen=
ts almost write themselves. Yes, there was some discussion about the =
software issues. Could/did somebody write a proposal of the functions=
and features of this system? Any volunteers on programming it?</div>=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"> &n=
bsp; Jim Bell</div><div><br clear=3D"none=
"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
=20
</div><div class=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766yqt4378970711" id=3D"yd=
p9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766yqt60729"><div class=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp42=
72171yahoo_quoted" id=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp4272171yahoo_quoted_608=
6457182">
<div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
=20
<div>
On Tuesday, October 15, 2019, 01:21:31 PM PDT, jim bell=
<jdb10987@yahoo.com> wrote:
</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div><div id=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp4272171yiv577355=
0282"><div><div class=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp4272171yiv5773550282ydp=
ea14bdbfyahoo-style-wrap" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, A=
rial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Jim Bell's comments inline: </div><div>=
<br clear=3D"none"></div>
=20
</div><div class=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp4272171yiv5773550282=
ydp4dbd12a7yahoo_quoted" id=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp4272171yiv5773550=
282ydp4dbd12a7yahoo_quoted_2120937487">
<div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
=20
<div>
On Tuesday, October 15, 2019, 11:23:53 AM PDT, Punk <=
;punks@tfwno.gf> wrote:
</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
<div><div dir=3D"ltr">On Sun, 13 Oct 2019 22:15:58 +0000 (U=
TC)<br clear=3D"none">jim bell <<a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:jdb1098=
7@yahoo.com" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">jdb10987@yahoo.com</a>> =
wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D=
"none">>>...let's flesh out some of the numbers and practices. =
Shouldn't take more than a few hours or at most a couple days, to give ever=
ybody an input. <br clear=3D"none">>> This appears t=
o be a representative sample of a Raspberry Pi 4 board, in kit form, 4 giga=
byte of RAM (I guess they must mean SDCard, right, and not ordinary SRAM or=
DRAM?<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"> as coderman =
said, that's the pi's main RAM memory. So yeah, those ARM 'systems on a chi=
p' are quite capable. They have 4 cores running at ~1.2gcps and tons =
of ram. </div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">_I_ remember when an Intel 804=
8 was called a "computer on a chip"!!!</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"n=
one"><br clear=3D"none">>> SD wears out, right?), with cables, =
a clear plastic box. $85 in quantity one. <br clear=3D"none"><b=
r clear=3D"none">> the previous model with 'only' 1gb or RA=
M, same processor is $35 or less. (you need to add a sd card, power supply =
and case)</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">How much main memory would be usef=
ul for a transfer node to use?</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"><br=
clear=3D"none"> > ...so the hardware is quite cheap. T=
he question is, of course, to what degree is it safe? The rpi for instance =
is designed in the english shithole by people working for the amerikan mafi=
a known as broadcom. The rpi's main processor is a broadcom processor (not =
the quadcore ARM), running closed source firmware written by the raspberry =
'foundation'. <br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">> there=
are other systems that are not as bad as the rpi - at least you won't be r=
unning GCHQ-NSA firmware directly. (some people were working on an open sou=
rce firmware but I don't think they got it to work)</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=
=3D"ltr">I agree that this is a matter that needs to be discussed. Bu=
t no doubt you've heard of the saying, 'the perfect being the enemy of the =
good'. <br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">=
> Can we agree that 1,000 quantity will be a good initial "critical mass=
" for this project? <br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">  =
; A thousand independent node operators isn't a small number. <br clear=3D"=
none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">>> tor is currently large=
r, <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"https://metrics.torproject.org/netw=
orksize.html but " rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://metrics.=
torproject.org/networksize.html but </a>1000 is still a good start.<br=
clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"> > yeah, you have to=
take into account for instance what % of those nodes is owned by the NSA, =
GCHQ, FSB, stasi, whatever the chinese agency is called, samsung, hitachi, =
etc etc etc etc etc.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"> > =
but wait, is your network partially client/server like tor, or is it a ful=
ly decentralized peer to peer network? (freenetproject.org)</div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div=
><div dir=3D"ltr">First, I'm not looking for it to be thought of as "my" ne=
twork, although maybe I will be credited with some initiative for giving th=
e project a kick. The person whose network it is publicly known=
as might end up being the person who initially funds it, and agrees to hav=
e his name attached to the project as sponsor. <br clear=3D"none=
">And no, I'm not qualified to answer your second comment. I don't co=
nsider myself a "software person", never have been. This is yet anoth=
er issue 'we' will have to work out. <br clear=3D"none"> &n=
bsp; <br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">>>=
; While hypothetically node operators might receive some sort of subsidy (i=
n full or in part) for their internet-service cost, it's also plausible tha=
t their Internet payment will be their "skin in the game", their contributi=
on to the project. Centurylink offers 1 gigabit/second service for $6=
5 plus tax. The speed itself is only one part of the issue. I t=
hink there is no data limit for their 1 gigabit service; their slower servi=
ces may have a 1 terabyte/month limit. <br clear=3D"none"><br cl=
ear=3D"none">> I don't know about bandwidth costs, but they=
obv. depend on how your network works. So discussing those costs before ha=
ving some idea about what kind of capacity/traffic/padding/architecture etc=
the system will have seems kinda backwards.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clea=
r=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"=
>The reason I initially referred to "1 gigabit" service for nodes is =
that I was, and still am, under the impression that current Centurylink pol=
icy exempts them from their "excessive use" policy. I suspect that co=
mputers of this level (Raspbery pi 4) won't be able to throughput more than=
a few tens of megabits of (processed) data, if that, so Internet rate won'=
t likely be a bottleneck. But a data cap could easily become a limiti=
ng factor, especially if the network implements heavy chaff. <br=
clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">>> > &=
nbsp; As to 'entirely new', it seems to me that a high latency mixing netwo=
rk (which is not a 'new' design) is desirable. Such a network should allow =
people to communicate using non-real-time messages, instead of allowing the=
m to browse jewtube. Low latency/real time networks and communications seem=
a lot harder to secure."<br clear=3D"none">> <br clear=3D"none">>>=
; What I'm thinking of is a programmable-latency network, say anything from=
1 to 256 hops. Although, it would be hard to imagine needing more th=
an 16, I suppose.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"> > &nb=
sp;some variables : <br clear=3D"none"> <br clear=3D"none=
">> *) number of mixers/nodes a message goes through</div><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none=
"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Yes, I'm thinking that a user should be able to de=
cide, for any individual message, how many nodes it will go through. =
He will still have a latency issue to deal with, but at least that tr=
adeoff question will be decided by HIM, not the entire network as a group,.=
</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">&=
nbsp;> *) all clients and nodes are exchanging fixed size pa=
ckets all the time (chaff)</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">I consider chaff =
essential to increase the difficulty of tracing messages, especially when t=
raffic is low. </div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"><br cle=
ar=3D"none"> > *) there are no clients - it's a peer to=
peer network<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">> =
>This is a list of proposed 'improvements' to TOR. <a shape=
=3D"rect" href=3D"https://blog.torproject.org/tor-design-proposals-how-we-m=
ake-changes-our-protocol No " rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://blog.torproject.org/tor-design-proposals-how-we-make-changes-our-p=
rotocol No </a>doubt SOMEWHERE there is a list of 'proposed impr=
ovements that we know the TOR structure will never agree to because they wi=
ll be considered 'too good' '. Shouldn't we use those, too?&nbs=
p; Especially those!<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=
=3D"none"> > so the best pentagon criminals like tor's =
syverson have been 'working' on this for a while and there are tons of 'lit=
erature' - some of their stuff is here <br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none=
"> > <a shape=3D"rect" class=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv291026776=
6ydp4272171yiv5773550282enhancr_card_2002468650" href=3D"https://www.freeha=
ven.net/papers.html" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">The Free Haven Proj=
ect</a><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"> > notice =
that cypherpunks(...) like adam back(now blockstream CEO, google funded) a =
guy called goldberg and others have been/are involved with tor to varying d=
egrees. Furthermore, adam back was subscribed to this list. His last messag=
e <br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">> <a shape=3D"=
rect" class=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp4272171yiv5773550282enhancr_card_=
1446025292" href=3D"https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2015-Jun=
e/053438.html" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">[Bitcoin-development] que=
stions about bitcoin-XT code fork & non-consensus hard-fork</a><br clea=
r=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"> > anyway, you Jim could =
try to get some ideas or/and help from back. Ver for marketing and funding =
and back for technical assistance may be a good combination. </div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none">=
</div><div dir=3D"ltr">I hope that if the proposal is technically sound, fi=
nancing won't be a problem. My idea of a target amount of initial sub=
sidy for setting up one node (ignoring software-development costs) should b=
e about $50: Myself, I'd like to charge about $30 for the hardw=
are kit, the quantity-1 cost would be $90 or so, but I don't yet have an es=
timate if the materials are purchased in 1000+ quantity. </div><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">> Her=
e are some other datapoints :<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">>&nbs=
p; <a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"https://maidsafe.net/" rel=3D"nofo=
llow" target=3D"_blank">https://maidsafe.net/</a><br clear=3D"none"><br cle=
ar=3D"none"> > those ppl have allegedly been working on=
teh problem...since forever. And they've gotten nowhere. They have even la=
unched their own shitcoin/financial scam. </div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br c=
lear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"l=
tr">I see lots of fine words on their website. But they haven'=
t accomplished much?</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"> > <a s=
hape=3D"rect" class=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp4272171yiv5773550282enhan=
cr_card_2078046972" href=3D"https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/maidsafeco=
in/" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">MaidSafeCoin (MAID) price, charts, =
market cap, and other metrics | CoinMarketCap</a><br clear=3D"none"><br cle=
ar=3D"none">> And they are not the only ones who want to ad=
d economic incentives to 'file sharing'. The idea seems like a good one to =
me, but it doesn't seem to work. </div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"n=
one"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">If it=
were truly easy to attach a 18-terabyte HD to each node, that would make i=
t a really interesting proposition... This, for $140 more...</d=
iv><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"> >=
<a shape=3D"rect" class=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp4272171yiv57735=
50282enhancr_card_1605244289" href=3D"https://storj.io/" rel=3D"nofollow" t=
arget=3D"_blank">Decentralized Cloud Storage =E2=80=94 Storj</a><br clear=
=3D"none"> "Decentralized Cloud Storage" <br clear=3D"non=
e"><br clear=3D"none">> <a shape=3D"rect" class=3D"ydp=
9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp4272171yiv5773550282enhancr_card_1670339873" href=
=3D"https://tron.network/" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">TRON Foundati=
on=EF=BC=9ACapture the future slipping away</a><br clear=3D"none"> &nb=
sp; "TRON is an ambitious project dedicated to building the infrastru=
cture for a truly decentralized Internet." <br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"=
none">> there prolly are a few more like that.<br clear=3D"=
none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"> > bottom l=
ine : there's a fair number of variables to take into account...<div class=
=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp4272171yiv5773550282ydp4dbd12a7yqt1669232858=
" id=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp4272171yiv5773550282ydp4dbd12a7yqtfd4060=
8"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp427217=
1yiv5773550282ydp4dbd12a7yqt1669232858" id=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp42=
72171yiv5773550282ydp4dbd12a7yqtfd40608"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div clas=
s=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp4272171yiv5773550282ydp4dbd12a7yqt166923285=
8" dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp4272171yiv5773550282ydp4dbd=
12a7yqtfd40608">True, <sigh>, quite true. </div><div class=
=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp4272171yiv5773550282yqt9234486851" id=3D"ydp=
9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp4272171yiv5773550282yqtfd99144"><div class=3D"ydp9a=
2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp4272171yiv5773550282ydp4dbd12a7yqt1669232858" dir=3D"=
ltr" id=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp4272171yiv5773550282ydp4dbd12a7yqtfd4=
0608"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp427=
2171yiv5773550282ydp4dbd12a7yqt1669232858" dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv=
2910267766ydp4272171yiv5773550282ydp4dbd12a7yqtfd40608">  =
; Jim Bell<br clear=
=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></div></=
div></div><div class=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp4272171yiv5773550282yqt9=
234486851" id=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp4272171yiv5773550282yqtfd30438"=
><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=
=3D"none"></div></div></div><div class=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp427217=
1yiv5773550282yqt9234486851" id=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp4272171yiv577=
3550282yqtfd22977">
</div></div><div class=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp4272171yiv=
5773550282yqt9234486851" id=3D"ydp9a2e3c4ayiv2910267766ydp4272171yiv5773550=
282yqtfd02059">
</div></div></div></div></div>
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